#031: Building Resilient Communities: Substance Misuse Prevention

Erin Jamison Day, Executive Director of Community Impact North Carolina (CINC), discusses the severe impacts of substance misuse, including physiological issues, mental health disorders, and social and economic challenges. Erin shares CINC's innovative approaches to prevention, emphasizing the importance of building strong community relationships to foster trust and collaboration. Learn how effective prevention strategies can lead to healthier lifestyles, improved mental health, and stronger, resilient communities. Discover ways individuals and organizations can support substance misuse prevention efforts. 

CINC: https://impactcarolina.org/
CINC Resources: https://impactcarolina.org/cinc_resources/ 

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- Liz Church, Host + Producer of The Atrómitos Way

Transcript

00;00;00;00 - 00;00;28;14
Liz Church
Welcome to The Atrómitos Way Podcast, where we have meaningful discussions on the challenges in health care and the solutions behind them. I'm your host, Liz Church. Each episode, we dive into the complexities of our health and social system, gaining the experiences and insights of the guests shape our lives and our communities. Substance misuse is the use of alcohol, illegal drugs, and over-the-counter prescription medications in a way that they are not meant to be used and could be harmful to you and others around you.

00;00;28;16 - 00;00;59;11
Liz Church
Substance misuse significantly impacts individuals lives in various ways. Psychologically, it can cause severe health issues like liver disease, cardiovascular problems, respiratory failure, and infectious diseases like HIV, Aids and hepatitis. But it often co-anchors with mental health disorders like depression and anxiety, complicating recovery socially. Substance misuse strains relationships leading to familial discord, social isolation, and challenges in maintaining employment or academic responsibilities.

00;00;59;13 - 00;01;27;26
Liz Church
Economically, it incurs high costs for individuals and society through health care expenses, lost productivity, and burdens on public health and criminal justice systems. These effects extend beyond the individual, affecting families and communities and underscoring the need for effective prevention and treatment strategies. Substance misuse prevention is crucial because it addresses the root causes of addiction, reducing the overall prevalence of substance misuse and its devastating impacts.

00;01;27;26 - 00;02;07;23
Liz Church
Individuals and their families. Effective prevention strategies can lead to healthier lifestyles, improve mental health and stronger, more resilient communities. My guest today is Aaron Jamison Day of Community Impact North Carolina, one of the state's leading organizations committed to preventing alcohol and other drug harm in our communities. In 1982, a group of concerned citizens founded Quincy in response to the alcoholism crisis in the community and now, over 40 years later, it strives to advance substance misuse prevention with a community centered approach through education, environmental and community based strategies, and public advocacy.

00;02;07;25 - 00;02;32;11
Liz Church
As the Executive director, Aaron spearheads the organization's initiatives to help prevent and minimize the harm caused by drugs and alcohol. Aaron's background stems from over 15 years in prevention and substance use disorders, and ten years experience leading a community coalition and training communities to initiate community level prevention efforts. Aaron is a recovery ally and has experience loving someone with a substance use disorder.

00;02;32;12 - 00;03;04;22
Liz Church
She has personally helped navigate the behavioral health system in North Carolina, and continues to work to be informed of local public resources, underground resources, and legislation that impacts those suffering from substance use disorders. So, without further ado, Aaron, hello and welcome to the show. So community impact of North Carolina or seeing NC has existed over 40 years. And being around this long, you've all endured roadblocks when promoting community said substance misuse prevention.

00;03;04;25 - 00;03;21;00
Liz Church
So, Aaron, can you speak to any of the challenges that the ANC has incurred that has impacted your work? This can be securing consistent funding, engaging communities, navigating political opposition to policy changes or effectively spreading awareness and education.

00;03;21;08 - 00;03;58;15
Erin Jamieson Day, MPH
Sure, that is a loaded question. I think as a nonprofit, there are not more but different roadblocks than for profit entities. Experience it. And so part of that is just, one creating validity and credibility for the the vehicle or the model that you're using, which for us would be community coalitions or collective impact groups out there, a variety of names used for these groups who work on, on the issues that that we tend to to come across, which substance use prevention.

00;03;58;18 - 00;04;28;24
Erin Jamieson Day, MPH
So, so one of the roadblocks is just selling people on the idea that coalitions make an impact and make a difference. And when a community has won, they're more likely to be prepared or braced for the next thing that's coming. so so that would be one roadblock. Another roadblock. Roadblock that we've come across is just really the evolution of our field, the prevention field.

00;04;28;26 - 00;04;53;20
Erin Jamieson Day, MPH
you remember just say no. You remember scare tactics. You remember car crashes in front of the high school, which wasn't very long ago. And all of these things have have kind of proven to be not as effective as we had hoped, but they're tangible. Whereas when you change cultural norms, when you propose a strategy that'll take 3 to 5 years to see the fruit of your labor.

00;04;53;22 - 00;05;24;23
Erin Jamieson Day, MPH
It's a little bit of a harder sell. While we know that those strategies provide the most return on investment with respect to changing youth substance misuse or, or creating community that is recovering informed or recovery friendly, the selling of a strategy that takes 3 to 5 years to see the outcomes is a difficult one. We can show output the whole way through it.

00;05;24;23 - 00;05;34;12
Erin Jamieson Day, MPH
Yeah, no, this number of this thing was done, this number of this thing. But the actual change that happens takes a little bit in our line of work.

00;05;34;19 - 00;05;55;18
Liz Church
Because you said Nancy Reagan, it made me think of something. Unfortunately, I think of Nancy Reagan. I do think of just say no. But I'm not sure why I didn't grow up in the 80s, but, In my fifth grade year of elementary school, I had to take the dare class, and that was the drug abuse resistance education.

00;05;55;20 - 00;06;15;18
Liz Church
And it was something that's funded by the public school education system. And it was great and everything. I got a bunch of stuff. I remember getting like a booklet and stuff like that. I got a t shirt, you know, I got some stuff that was helpful. But one thing that I thought was lacking is the fact that middle school, there weren't really any classes.

00;06;15;20 - 00;06;42;25
Liz Church
High school was a really awkward moment. Like gym teacher was telling us how grave consequences were for it and trying to instill fear, which did not work for a bunch of high schoolers. And, there's nothing else ever. And I feel like there was some kind of disconnect there, especially with high school. You know, there is big changes that people are going through and, you know, there's they're more likely to turn to things if they're going through crisis.

00;06;42;27 - 00;07;01;13
Liz Church
What is, in a teenage mind a crisis. So this is where this question I want to ask you is coming from. Big changes can cause big things. So the pandemic, were there any kind of challenges that you saw that made it harder to keep the coalition going during the pandemic?

00;07;01;16 - 00;07;26;27
Erin Jamieson Day, MPH
Yeah. So back to first, your original comment about, you know, what you're remembering and the way things kind of kind of petered out over your the course of your education, your primary education. So we know that those strategies are individual. So we're giving you a piece of information to do with it what you will as a single person.

00;07;26;29 - 00;07;56;14
Erin Jamieson Day, MPH
And so what we found was that that wasn't necessarily that alone singularly wasn't as impactful as if you have that plus several different local ordinances and policies, and you go home to a home where the alcohol is secured and the medications are secured, showing you that these are things that could hurt you if used inappropriately or before, you know, your brain stops developing.

00;07;56;17 - 00;08;28;10
Erin Jamieson Day, MPH
so it's a it's a holistic thing of education and information and modeling by adults of the community. Modeling in the policies that they set and just modeling in their actions, really, so that young people can see what's expected and what's normal and what's healthy and, and and kids, they feed off that. They want to know, okay. You know, is this the thing we do as adults is or is this the thing we do as adults and it's adults responsibility to set those norms.

00;08;28;13 - 00;08;58;28
Erin Jamieson Day, MPH
So so there's that. And which is a great segue into Covid. And what we saw was, of course, nobody was seeing anybody. You we did see that young people were with their families more, which showed an, a downward trend for adolescents in substance misuse because they were with their families. Their families knew where they were, what they were doing, who they were with because it was them.

00;08;59;01 - 00;09;32;29
Erin Jamieson Day, MPH
Yes. Whereas with other age persons, people 21 and over, we saw obviously an increase in use or misuse because of the isolation, because of restrictions on, different alcohol restrictions were lifted and, and things were made easier as far as access was concerned to there was a myriad of issues there as far as coalitions were concerned. there was actually an uptick in attendance to virtual meetings.

00;09;32;29 - 00;09;59;06
Erin Jamieson Day, MPH
So we helped communities to kind of turn on a dime and say, okay, look, you can have a really fruitful 45 to 60 minute meeting. People can get on at home or wherever they are during the lockdown or post-acute coven, and they can take the time to get on. And if they want to engage, they can engage. If they want to just have it on because they want to hear what's going on, they can do that too.

00;09;59;09 - 00;10;22;10
Erin Jamieson Day, MPH
There's a variety of ways they can interface with the coalition that aren't just a traditional come to a meeting, have a sandwich, listen, report out, maybe and go home and not feel like maybe you've got your time's worth. So it actually was it was really cool to see. And now we're seeing post-acute Covid. Some people deciding to do a hybrid.

00;10;22;10 - 00;10;40;08
Erin Jamieson Day, MPH
Like they get together some quarters. In some quarters they do zoom. So it was it was a time for refreshing and we kind of spun it that way. Look, you don't often get it get to hit the pause button. So let's see what's working, what's not working. Reevaluate your plans. You know, things like that.

00;10;40;11 - 00;11;03;19
Liz Church
As we've I've seen with you know, obviously with other things, it's amazing to have both options because it does allow more people to have access and it's fantastic. So moving onward a little bit to talk about working with the communities and having that system. So to achieve your organizational goals, it's obviously critical to cultivate strong relationships that build trust and foster communications with the communities that you serve.

00;11;03;21 - 00;11;11;06
Liz Church
So how does science support communities and prioritize building relationships to foster trust and collaboration?

00;11;11;09 - 00;11;49;13
Erin Jamieson Day, MPH
Sure. So I think it would be that the prioritization comes first and then the support comes second. So we do support a little over 50 counties, which equates to about 90 communities. And in a variety of ways. But relationships are paramount for us. And because of that we only go where we're invited. And because we don't want to come in and tell you what's wrong and how to fix it, we want you to know that something doesn't feel quite right.

00;11;49;13 - 00;12;18;27
Erin Jamieson Day, MPH
Something's not working, that we're available. And you take it upon yourselves to call. And then we're more than happy to come for as long as you'll have us. And and so that's important. The second thing that goes with that, though, is we really take pride in the knowing. So what I mean by that is we don't just know about the trends related to substance misuse in your community.

00;12;18;29 - 00;12;45;28
Erin Jamieson Day, MPH
We also know if your chair had knee surgery last week, the chair of your board, we know if, you. Are at the end of your funding cycle and having to do a whole lot of different reports and you need help with something. And we know if your kid is playing travel baseball, we know other things that are going on in your community that aren't even related to substance misuse.

00;12;45;28 - 00;13;15;26
Erin Jamieson Day, MPH
We make it our job to know. And in the knowing people feel ideally the genuine ness with which we we care about them and their health and their communities, health and happiness. And so those are the ways that we build that trust and that we build that sense of, we're here for as long as you'll have us. And then, you know, we'll we'll back off.

00;13;15;26 - 00;13;26;22
Erin Jamieson Day, MPH
And if you need us again, we're here. We're still here. so, yeah. So relationships are super important, and, and we try to make that known in every way we can.

00;13;26;28 - 00;13;37;01
Liz Church
Yeah, it's bringing everybody together. It's that aspect where you're you're taking smaller communities and making them into a bigger one. It's kind of wild when you think about it.

00;13;37;03 - 00;14;01;00
Erin Jamieson Day, MPH
Yeah. We always say that we like to help. We don't like to use the word empower. We like to help communities realize the power they already have to make change with what they already have going on, the people who are already there and already care about the well-being of the community and its members and its young people and vulnerable populations, etc..

00;14;01;03 - 00;14;08;10
Erin Jamieson Day, MPH
And so, yeah, it is the bringing together of the capacity that's within to make change.

00;14;08;12 - 00;14;31;29
Liz Church
That's really strong in itself. I never thought about it that way. And, you know, you're open my eyes here a little bit here and that's a fantastic way of looking at it. So by helping people realize their own power through the relationships that you build in the offerings that you provide, do you get feedback from these communities, like feedback that helps facilitate what direction you want to go as an organization to grow?

00;14;32;01 - 00;14;56;13
Erin Jamieson Day, MPH
Yeah. So about two years ago, we started to use a third party to evaluate kind of how people feel about us, which can be a little scary. but we definitely want to know that we're meeting the needs of the communities that we serve. And so we ask a lot of those questions, and then we ask a lot of, what can we do better?

00;14;56;15 - 00;15;21;28
Erin Jamieson Day, MPH
how can we be more informed? How can we be more culturally humble and aware? How can we be more thoughtful in our approach? And is there anything specific that we could offer that would help you do your work better? What help you to prepare your community for the next thing related to substance misuse? So yeah, we the short answer is yes.

00;15;21;28 - 00;15;30;05
Erin Jamieson Day, MPH
The long answer is we started to survey the those that we support about two years ago and to make sure that we're on target.

00;15;30;08 - 00;15;42;28
Liz Church
So for the 42, yes, 42 years that CAC has been in existence, has the mission always been the same?

00;15;43;04 - 00;16;15;21
Erin Jamieson Day, MPH
No, it has been close and it has stuck to kind of the the idea of increasing protective factors and reducing negative factors. And so but the language around that has changed because the way that we are doing that has evolved when since we started it, same was family Wilson families in action. And that was 1982. And there was a lot of parent engagement.

00;16;15;21 - 00;16;51;19
Erin Jamieson Day, MPH
There was a lot of individual strategies and programing. There were a lot of really great things done that that sowed seeds and planted seeds, created readiness for change, built awareness around the issue of substance misuse. In Wilson County, but also started to bleed across the state over time. and so about, let's say, six years ago, we were we we noticed a gap in support for community coalitions.

00;16;51;22 - 00;17;24;28
Erin Jamieson Day, MPH
And the division of mental health made its first investment into into that support. And so we're very grateful for them hearing us and seeing that community coalitions were a worthy investment for making change as far as substance use prevention is concerned. so, yeah, so we've not had the same mission, but we have been focused on similar a similar effort the whole term.

00;17;25;18 - 00;17;48;14
Liz Church
So then part of that mission is now obviously working in partnership with the communities to bridge the gap with direct support. So then what in what way does community impact North Carolina work to build local community capacity, ensuring that communities have those resources and the knowledge to effectively address substance misuse issues?

00;17;48;17 - 00;18;19;13
Erin Jamieson Day, MPH
Well, we like to say we get out our crystal ball and we try to see what's coming, and then we say, Batten down the hatches. so we do talk about a crystal ball, and a magic pencil, but we save those for special occasions. No. So one is we use a federally, or nationally kind of backed model or framework, the strategic prevention framework.

00;18;19;16 - 00;18;42;26
Erin Jamieson Day, MPH
because anything that we help communities or support communities in, we want it to be data driven. We want it to be we want there to be a rhyme or reason. We don't want it to come out of one person's mind, or for anyone to think that one person just decided this was the issue that needed to be addressed, and this was the way.

00;18;43;03 - 00;19;12;22
Erin Jamieson Day, MPH
So having a framework creates some validity and credibility because you have to you have to assess the issue. You have to build capacity. You have to create a plan. You move into evaluation after you implement the plan and all the all the while thinking about cultural humility and sustainability of the thing that you're implementing. So it's it's a real foundational piece for us that we work with communities on.

00;19;12;24 - 00;19;44;02
Erin Jamieson Day, MPH
it also helps for communities to have that because it tailors that strategic prevention framework, allows the community to tailor their work to their specific needs, their specific capacity. Not every community is built the same. Not every community has the same issue or for the same reason. And so using that framework allows them to tailor their work for for their specific situation, which is very important.

00;19;44;04 - 00;20;22;29
Erin Jamieson Day, MPH
The second thing is, as far as capacity is concerned, one of the things is again, back to the knowing. We make it our business to know what's happening in the field. And that doesn't just make North Carolina specific, but nationally or federally as well. And so we're able to create informational pieces or trainings or pass along information that builds the capacity of community coalition leaders and allows them to be able to translate that information to their coalition membership.

00;20;23;02 - 00;20;33;11
Erin Jamieson Day, MPH
So then they're not they're less reactive and more proactive on the issues that are coming down the line, which goes back to the crystal ball.

00;20;33;13 - 00;20;35;06
Liz Church
So say there again, is there it is.

00;20;35;09 - 00;20;47;18
Erin Jamieson Day, MPH
Yeah. There it is. Always reading things, always sifting through information and then ideally able to get the most timely and feel relevant info.

00;20;47;20 - 00;20;58;24
Liz Church
So obviously there's a lot of research getting involved with the awareness if you will, and understanding the things that are available and then getting that out there. Has there been any challenges in getting this together?

00;20;59;00 - 00;21;21;17
Erin Jamieson Day, MPH
It's important again to know and for me to say that nothing is done in solidarity. So or like nothing is done and we're not doing it just singularly with and solidarity is not the right. We're not doing it singularly. So we have to give credit when we get information from different sources, and we do, because that's the right thing to do.

00;21;21;20 - 00;21;45;20
Erin Jamieson Day, MPH
so yes, it's it keeps us on our toes and it's a lot of information to sift through. But one, we love it. We love our work at CMC. Our team is small, but we are. We love it. So for us, it's exciting every day to learn what's new, what's happening, to hear our new information is coming down the line and be able to give that to the communities we support.

00;21;45;20 - 00;21;59;24
Erin Jamieson Day, MPH
That's exciting for us. We want to be the first ones to tell it, you know? And so while it is a lot because we love it so much, it doesn't feel it's not burdensome, it's not something that we get bogged down by.

00;21;59;26 - 00;22;19;01
Liz Church
It's great to have that passion that you love what you do. You show it in your work. There's hard work that's put into and you're proud of the outcome. So to kind of get into a little bit more of like what this outcome kind of looks like. So there were some resources that you shared with me. There was like 4 or 5, and I found them through the website and I found more resources.

00;22;19;01 - 00;22;38;23
Liz Church
And I was like, Holy smokes, Batman, these are great. Just because of how informational they were. It wasn't just like a single page with like, hey, there were just six facts. Use this like brochure informational packet. And I was blown away by how you all put them together in ways that were also very easy to understand, speaking in languages that were unfamiliar to me.

00;22;38;23 - 00;23;03;06
Liz Church
But I was able to comprehend them and to paint the picture exactly what these were. For our listeners here is that these particular ones that I was looking at, they covered topics such as fentanyl awareness, marijuana laws, lessons from state to federal regulations with alcohol, opioids, a ton of different things. And they're known as the C, I n C originals, ladies and gentlemen.

00;23;03;06 - 00;23;31;11
Liz Church
And the cool kids just enter the building. I love it, but they are readily available resources as educating the public is more than necessary, and the members of the public come from all different backgrounds. So how does C and C use various methods and trainings to spread the awareness and educate different groups? You know, these groups are like, you know, professionals, parents, youth, and they're all going to come together on trying to understand substance misuse prevention.

00;23;31;13 - 00;24;15;04
Erin Jamieson Day, MPH
Yes. Okay. So also another loaded question. We we use a variety of mediums. We do translate some of our, items into different languages. And we we also acknowledge that we're not always the right messenger for whatever the thing is. So sometimes there's a better messenger than us. And we I think acknowledging that helps us to be a little more culturally humble or aware, because if we can see that, then we can seek out who might be the right messenger just for the audience, or the age or the generation, or the time or the whomever and whatever the variable is.

00;24;15;06 - 00;24;51;14
Erin Jamieson Day, MPH
so, so there's that and. I think the other thing to remember is they are everybody who receives the information that we put together. They are different sectors, like you were mentioning the professionals versus the parents versus the school system, not versus, but the health and health care sector. All these different sectors. Yes. But what they do have in common is they are laypeople when it comes to substance use disorders and specifically primary prevention.

00;24;51;17 - 00;25;16;13
Erin Jamieson Day, MPH
So one of the things we do is try to be very palatable in our language. And so I'm glad to hear that you found them easy to understand, because we really do try to try to focus on that, that they're palatable and they're translatable. So if you were to read one of the documents, you'd be able to translate what you read to your mama at dinner.

00;25;16;15 - 00;25;47;09
Erin Jamieson Day, MPH
that's what we want. And no matter the audience. So, so that's really important for us. The other thing that's very important is that the information we provide is objective. It is not meant to say that we believe one way or the other, or think you should believe one way or the other. It is objective information on whatever the subject is and the information that we provide is synthesized, you know, journal articles and things like that.

00;25;47;11 - 00;26;16;21
Erin Jamieson Day, MPH
But we're really thoughtful about who is funding that research that we are using because based on who is funding it, it could have a certain slant. And it's really important to us to stay as objective as possible. So those are kind of some high level things that we try to keep in mind as far as making sure that the information we provide can be used by anyone.

00;26;19;20 - 00;26;49;12
Erin Jamieson Day, MPH
And then. We also help the communities that we support to be able to identify what resonates with their communities. So a lot of times we're not the ones giving the information to the communities at large. We are training the leaders of the coalitions or collective impact groups or task forces or whatever they call themselves, to be able to to then translate that information for their community.

00;26;49;12 - 00;27;07;03
Erin Jamieson Day, MPH
And in a way that makes sense because they know their communities readiness, they know their communities biases, they know all of these things that we don't always know in the same way. Obviously. So so that's really important for us.

00;27;07;06 - 00;27;34;13
Liz Church
All right here. And you have graced us with a plethora of information. I'm going to overwhelm these folks with a ton of resources, but it's educational and it's very important to know. But to close out everything that we've talked about today and the insights that you've shared, Erin, how can individuals and other organizations get involved in supporting efforts to prevent substance misuse in their communities?

00;27;34;15 - 00;28;03;25
Erin Jamieson Day, MPH
there are a variety of ways, and no one comes. I shouldn't say no. very few people come to this work without a personal reason as to why they're here. And so I think the bleeding heart brings you and, and it's in the becoming engaged and aware that you start to realize the, the potential breadth of your power to make change.

00;28;03;27 - 00;28;32;10
Erin Jamieson Day, MPH
And so there's individual ways you can make change that you can you can adjust your language. If you've been using language that is stigmatized into substance use disorders, then you can look at how you might talk about substance use disorders in a way that is more, medically slanted or treats it as, the disorder as a disease versus as a choice or a moral failing.

00;28;32;12 - 00;29;12;04
Erin Jamieson Day, MPH
Those are ways that you can make a change individually. Also, securing your medication and securing your alcohol to reduce access for our young people or people who may already have an alcohol use disorder or substance use disorder. So those are individual things that you can do on a more macro level. We have a map on our website where you can find the closest coalition to you, and if you want to get engaged that way, then you can and you can see where you, you know, get in where you fit in, because most likely they're doing a lot of different strategies and something may speak to you and you're like, okay, this is where I want

00;29;12;04 - 00;29;30;03
Erin Jamieson Day, MPH
to put my energy. And then if you work with a coalition already or a group of people that you don't really know, what the heck you're doing and you want some support, you're more than welcome to call us. the support we provide is free. I think that's an important point. So we don't charge for the support we provide to communities in the state of North Carolina.

00;29;30;06 - 00;30;05;23
Erin Jamieson Day, MPH
And I think people need to know that, because a lot of times, people who are working on this issue don't have a lot of money in the bank. And so to get free support that is vouched for by other communities and state and federal entities, is is a cool opportunity. And I think it goes back to you can't address this issue on your own, not a single entity or organization can address the the giant issue of substance use disorders.

00;30;05;26 - 00;30;32;24
Erin Jamieson Day, MPH
So no matter how you want to be engaged or involved or try to make change, learning more about the disorder or learning more about the different parts of the continuum, and and getting getting in where you feel like you fit is is important because we can't do this work without communities, engaged communities which are made up of people who care.

00;30;32;27 - 00;31;03;06
Erin Jamieson Day, MPH
And so we care very deeply about about that and about retaining the humanity of the issue, because people, people we love who are sick, people we love, who we don't want to get sick, and that that's really the bottom line and why we care so much. It's the because it's it's a human issue and we care about people and we want that be felt.

00;31;03;09 - 00;31;21;08
Liz Church
The Atrómitos Way is produced by me, Liz Church. Editorial assistance for this episode was by my fantastic team at headquarters. I would like to express our heartfelt appreciation to our guests who've shared their expertise, stories and insights with us on the podcast. And finally, a big thank you to our listeners. Your support and engagement have meant the world to us.

00;31;21;08 - 00;31;49;26
Liz Church
Atrómitos boutique consulting firm with the imperative mission of creating healthier, more resilient, more equitable communities, I encourage you to connect with us. Let's continue these conversations and work together towards positive change. You can listen to all of our previous episodes on our website, atromitosconsulting.com/atromitos-way. That's a r t o i m o s. We can also be found on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Amazon Music, or wherever you get your podcasts.

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Liz Church
We'll see you next time.